Third Magic[]
I still don't get what the Third Magic does. The explanation is only confusing me more. ^^; --Koveras Alvane 18:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Just keep it at "Materialization of the soul". With just that, you can guess that raw souls can't normally interact with the outside world.
- There's that other explanation about how a living creature needs a soul, a body and a brain to live ; the brain is what anchors the soul to the present world. You know how some characters can have some nifty regeneration skill that could revive them even if a vital part like the heart is destroyed (e.g. Ciel's original skill, before the Roa-paradox, worked just like that) ; well, destroying the brain would override that (thus if Arcueid had killed Elesia by destroying her brain the first time around instead of piercing her heart, she likely wouldn't be here in Tsukihime).
- ... And so, materializing the soul would allow you to override that restriction, it would prevent the soul from slipping away back to the Akasha and be purged in the cycle of reincarnation.
- Apparently that's a very tough thing to do. The line "Rather than the reproduction of a body from a soul of the past" is about how it's not a copy (you create someone else who happens to be just like the other guy in every aspect), but really the original soul that is materialized. Without it, a raw soul would just be recycled as it isn't anchored in the present world. It's not really creating a brain the soul could anchor to, it seems like it's making the soul so that it doesn't need to be anchored. A higher existence, on a higher plane, etc. A raw soul isn't a lifeform, but the third magic can make it easier to turn into something actually alive.
- It's said that the Great Grail uses an incomplete piece of the Third Magic to bring the Servants here ; well, with Servants, you pull out a raw soul (which just so happens to be filled with a copy of the Heroic Spirit) then you need prana to help them remain in the present world. They're somehow brought back, but they aren't alive ; the full third magic would make them "alive" (then you'd just need to give them a physical body). ... The mud of the corrupted Grail gives them a physical body, but still without making them alive.
- tl;dr a raw soul is just raw energy. If it's not anchored in the present world, it disappears and goes back through the cycle of reincarnation. The third magic turns them into something that is actually present, not just an interference, something that can interact with the present world. It's closer to being somethingh actually alive, hence a "higher existence". Just give it a body and it becomes a real person.
- It somehow allows a true immortality, better than Zouken's, because the soul doesn't get damaged in the process, it remains as it was supposed to be.
- ... I'll try and see if there isn't an article on the soul that could make all that understandable. --Byakko 19:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you. ^^ I've tried to summarize what I understood in this article, so please check if there is any mistakes there. ^^;; --Koveras Alvane 12:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- Just stick with the translation of the explanation that Ilya gave directly. They can't be stuck together like that.
hmmm...... No mention of the 6th magic from Melty Blood? —This unsigned comment is by 75.156.55.82 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 24 April 2009. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
- What? Explain! --Raijinili 14:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it certainly was mentioned but I haven't played in a while. I think it was something about Tatari Kaloo 18:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Odd thought. What if the Fifth Magic is a way to emulate the function of a Transcendental body. In effect, a way to channel the infinite prana of the planet without overloading a magic circuit. A safe way to overextend a person's magecraft. It might explain why Aoko has so much raw power, but with so few circuits. Most of her spells are really simple, but ridiculously strong... Does she even use Aria?--Twelveseal 07:59, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
- You guys are misunderstanding something. First of all, there is no such a thing as a Sixth Magic. What we have in Melty Blood is the mention of a "Program Number 6", a natural law that Zepia/Walachia tried to break (and failed) that is said to bring the final doom of humanity.
- Also, the exact details of Aoko's Magic is something that has never been stated anywhere (although a few dialogues of Actress Again have implied that it falls along the lines of time travel). Her ability of using great amounts of prana is a byproduct of her family's high-quality Magic Circuits. And yes, she does use Aria. Actually, she even have a skill called High-Speed Aria that allows her to spell her chants faster than normal. --Libra00 08:50, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
- "What if the Fifth Magic is a way to emulate the function of a Transcendental body. In effect, a way to channel the infinite prana of the planet without overloading a magic circuit." Welcome to Bullshitland, where you pull up totally random conjectures from nowhere. Besides, it looks like you completely ignored the very definition of magic to begin with - something outside of the natural laws which can't be reproduced in any way by science. Just boosting a power output or extending something that exists (like the circuits) has nothing to do with that. --Byakko 10:24, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
Stub ?[]
Is this still a stub ? It's pretty much everything that's known from all the novels. Any modification would be either a cosmetic change or adding info as other games come out. --Byakko 16:09, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
- Article was a stub long time ago but, as you say, is no longer. I see no reason not to removed the stub status. --Azaghal 05:01, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
Unclear definitions[]
First order of business - Magic (general definition): (1) "[T]he ability to make possible something that is impossible to realize in the current era." (2)"If it is possible to realize "magic" regardless of time and fund, then the "result" isn't magic."
I don't get it. The "regardless of time and fund" part in (2) seems to contradict the "impossible to realize in the current era" in (1), which itself implicity means that a "True Magic" does something that, at the time of its creation, is impossible to do, but may be possible in the future, whether due to technological or financial requirements.
Second order of business - First Magic, territory: what is "Denial of nothingness" supposed to mean? Is Nasu-sensei trying to mess with our heads by giving ambiguously brief "explanations"? ^^;
MarqFJA 19:58, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
- First : The "regardless of time and fund" part doesn't take into account the potential technological/magical development, only it's current state. For instance, getting a human to walk on the Moon would be considered a True Magic until 1960s when technical knowledge became sufficiently advanced to do it. No matter how much time or resources a medieval civilization might had, they just couldn't get a man to the moon. I think I read from somewhere else (can't remember where, or if it's properly sourced) that time travel has the highest chance to be the next in line for True Magic becoming "mundane" - it is something that can only be achieved by Magic atm, but technology might allow it soon.
- Second : Yes, as far as I know. He does that a lot :P --Azaghal 23:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
- First : Now that makes much more sense than simply "regardless of time and fund". ^^ That sentence should really be followed by clarification along the lines of "with current science/technology", in light of your explanation. ;P
- Second : So, you don't have a clue too, huh? --;
- MarqFJA 23:30, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
- On "clarify that it's with current science/tech" : it's already said. "Impossible to realize in the current era". --Byakko 01:47, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
- That clause alone would've been clear enough; it's the "regardless of time and fund" clause that follows it that muddled the intended meaning, and which needs SOME clarifying extension to clear the confusion. Read the whole sentence again, and then imagine a newbie trying to make sense of it. MarqFJA 02:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
- "the ability to make possible something that is impossible to realize in the current era. If a person, or group thereof, is able to realize "magic" regardless of the time and fund put into it, then the "result" isn't magic." Better ? --Byakko 13:26, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
- That clause alone would've been clear enough; it's the "regardless of time and fund" clause that follows it that muddled the intended meaning, and which needs SOME clarifying extension to clear the confusion. Read the whole sentence again, and then imagine a newbie trying to make sense of it. MarqFJA 02:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
- Now that is practically impossible to misinterpret. MarqFJA 13:42, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
"Emiya Shirou tracing ability is said to be a deteriorated form of the first magic."[]
I don't remember this. Where was it stated?
- It isn't. The misunderstanding comes from a certain scene in the Fate Route in which Rin mention that Shirou's tracing was "a deteriorated form of that one magic". It never made any direct mention to the First, so I don't know why people are so fixated on the idea. Also, nobody seems to be considering a possible translation mistake, as MM was not so keen in using different terms to majutsu (Magecraft) and mahou (Magic). For all we know, she could be talking about the Reality Marble Magecraft. --Libra00 16:46, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
Seems more like it's a fragment of the Second Magic anyway, as he pulls stuff out of his own alternate reality...--Twelveseal 06:58, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
- What ? His alternate reality and the second magic ? ... This has absolutely nothing to do with that. It's not an alternate reality in that sense of the term. --Byakko 18:01, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
Basically Rin just says that what he does is similar to a True Magic. Doesn't specify which one. Basically it's not really a form of True Magic at all, it just functions like one of them...Gotta wonder why we don't just use the forums for recurring topics like this.Twelveseal 02:47, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
- as we all know Gradation Air, or Projection is simply creating something based on the caster's imagination out of nothing, so isn't this similar to the first Magic, by means, "denial of Nothingness"? Creation out of nothing? aka, Ex Nihilo, even though we know Shirou's case of projection is special, since he's only replicating weapons from his reality marble
- or is there something different between these two? can someone explain more in detail? Vergilheartnet (talk) 17:44, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
- Projection is not producing things from literally nothing. Projection, no matter how good, is made from mana (life force). You are converting energy to matter, trippy, but still within the bounds of Equivalent Exchange.
- Denial of Nothingness, which is hinted to be operations involving Ether, seems to imply creating things from nothing (Ether, or Void).
- There is a vast difference between Emiya and the user of the First.
- Waifu slayer (talk) 02:57, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, so it's the energy source that is required that makes them different, right? Projection uses prana/mana, and the first magic uses Ether, correct? 203.106.150.162 14:13, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
- It's hinted. We don't know how exactly the First works. Waifu slayer (talk) 16:40, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
Stanrobe Calhin[]
Hey, anybody know where the Stanrobe Calhin thing came from? I haven't seen that info anywhere, whether it makes sense or not...Twelveseal 05:59, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
- I undid the two edits that added unsourced info. You're right, those were probably random speculation --Azaghal 23:49, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
The five magics are only magics recognized by the Association.
http://hiki.cre.jp/typemoon/?TheMagic
Also, if magic means anything impossible to modern science, then Touko ("perfect" doll, which is the same as perfect clone) and Araya (awakening origin, and science doesn't even have the concept of origin) are both magicians by this bottom line definition.
~~ This would make most thaumargy "True Magic", since many of them are impossible to aquire through modern technology (at its current state). I think real Magic is something that cant even be aquired in the farthest future, while Toukos Clone and Arayas Manipulation can be.
- It's somewhat hinted that time travel is one of the five Magics and that it is the one technology is the closest to be able to recreate. That said, you can also see it that way : what's natural and what's not. Creating energy or things from nothing (what the First Magic seems to be) is not natural, generating a flame is a natural occurence. A human body is a natural occurence (by the way, clones exist with modern technology), traveling through parallel dimensions/universes isn't. --Byakko 09:14, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
So the definition of Magic really comes down to "A technique* that goes against natural laws" (which is necessarily impossible to science).
- I think "technique" would be a better word than "something", otherwise special abilities (e.g. MEoDP) that don't involve any methodology would be counted as Magic too. A living being perceiving everything's death ain't natural...
FYI, cloning in science means cloning the genes only (meaning a clone must go through the biological growth process). Recreating the exact growth is impossible, because any varibles in one's growth can turn one into a different person. When I said "perfect clone" I meant achieving that impossibility, which Touko achieved.
I also wonder what do you think about the link I posted. It mentions that a Magic is an indicator of drawing power form the Root. I've never heard anything about that.
But I'm positive about the five Magics are only Magics being "recognized" by the Association. It is possible for other organizations to have different opinions on what are Magics.
- "It mentions that a Magic is an indicator of drawing power form the Root."
- What I remember is that "magic is what's left when someone reaches the Akasha", as in, those who achieved a miracle and reached the Akasha come out of it with a new magic in their bag. I can't remember where I got that from, though, maybe I just made it up somehow. But it does sound kind of similar to what you're saying here.
- Other than that, I've never heard of something like the Association being the one that "recognizes" what is and what isn't magic. But then again I've been out of the Type-Moon loop for quite a while and running on memories from two to three years ago by now (played FHA and FSN in 2006 and read Fate/Zero and Mirai Fukuin in 2008 and that's about it, not counting DDD). I didn't know that site you linked to, seems interesting at a quick glance but I couldn't know what source these guys go with. --Byakko 01:20, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I seem to remember, either from KnK or FSN, that no one who's ever reached the Akasha has come back. What I think constitutes Magic is a unique technique that performs a function that cannot be achieved, or even understood, by conventional modern practice or process, be it technological, thaumaturgical, or otherwise. It is, in effect, a complete unknown, understood only by the rare few people who can achieve it. This is what makes it Magic, no one but the Magicians understand how it works. Consider that just copying the Jewel Sword is homework from Zelretch that lasted for generations. Somewhere I read that even Archer, who can analyze the function and nature of any worldly object, cannot understand Kaleidoscope from studying the JSZ. Seems like the lack of understanding, combined with being a power that defies the preconceived "rules" of Science and Magecraft are the only real criteria... Twelveseal 22:31, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
Fifth Magic[]
I know I'm not the best informed, but aren't those glassess destructible. Something about Satsujinki being able to see the lines on them. It seems that post is probably conjecture... Wouldn't it be best to talk about that on the Discussion page here or in the forums before posting it?Twelveseal 19:31, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Last I remember, he could see the lines through the glasses, I don't remember a particular mention of him seeing lines on the glasses. Then again it's been years since I've paid attention. That said, nothing ever linked that to the Fifth Magic specifically rather than just Aoko's general specialty. She's also known for blowing up stuff, so to make it short, just recognize it as what it is : we don't have the foggiest idea what the hell her Magic does, and let's not make connections up. --Byakko 19:54, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
1st & 4th Magic[]
Where exactly is the information regarding the "possible" domains of the 1st and 4th domains provided? I recall that Bazette mentioned "Denial of Nothing" and "Time Travel" as examples of True Magic, but not that they were positively associated with particular numbers. If there is no source, then this is misinformation. --Fallacies 05:33, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
- To the best of my knowledge, Denial of Nothingness is referred as related to the First Magic by Avenger. As for Time Travel, it's more like a possible by-product of one of the magics. We also know that there are only five Magics, no more (at this point in time anyway), so if Time Travel is possible through one of the existing magics, it has to be one of those we don't know, and it's not necessarily Aoko's. And even if it is, nothing says it's not possible with the other unknown Magics. So to recap, we know it's possible through at least one of them, and we know there's nothing more than these five. Again, all of that is "as far as I know" so keep a grain of salt on it. --62.39.79.1 11:50, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
Per the JP Wiki (http://hiki.cre.jp/typemoon/?TheMagic):
- The First Magic (第一魔法)
- User (使い手):
- Unknown. Long vanished from the world. (不明。既に世界から消滅。)
- The only object of respect recognized by the blue-blooded Barthomeloi clan, one of the cornerstones of the Mage's Association in London. (ロンドン魔術協会のロードの一角、最強の「貴い魔術回路(ブルーブラッド)」を擁するバルトメロイが、他のロードすら見下す中、唯一敬意を払う対象。)
- Domain (内容)
- Unknown (不明。)
- The Fourth Magic (第四魔法)
- User (使い手):
- Unknown (不明)
- Domain (内容):
- Unknown (不明)
According to the article's memo, "The 1st Magic may be related to Ether Clumps, so it is possible that the 'Denial of Nothing' may be associated with it." However, it does not explicitly say that there is a link. The memo also makes a potential link between Aoko's 5th Magic and Time Travel, observing that she's had dialogue mysteriously associated with time in her appearances in Melty Blood and Fate/Extra. In Melty Blood Act Cadenza, her Last Arc attack, "Retrogression Canal - Genesis Lightyear," is performed with the spoken line, "Sane Timeless Wars." In Fate/Extra, she says:
「なんかきな臭い未来があったから、おかしな事にならないよう見に来たのよ」とのことで、実際来てみたら姉が変な秘密基地を作っていたので、しぶしぶそこにとどまっている。何故か殺し合いには発展していない。」
Given the lack of certainty, wouldn't it be more accurate to /more weakly/ associate the "Denial of Nothing" and "Time Travel" with the numbered magics that they're presently associated with in the article? --Fallacies 19:07, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
5 True Magics[]
The beginning first changed everything.
The following second acknowledged many. The resulting third showed the future. The linking fourth concealed itself. And the final fifth had already lost its meaning.
Had it only ended at the third, someone had said.
~ Mahou Tsukai no Yoru
This refers to the functions of the 5 true magics right?
173.63.43.54 01:28, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Probably not, since the second is operation of parallel worlds, the third is soul creation, and the fifth is more or less time travel. The quote probably refers to their discovery and the effects that those discoveries had.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:38, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Not to seem rude, but that sounds like kind of an oxymoron.
- "The following second acknowledged many" The Second Magic basically proves the existence of many parallel worlds, it acknowledged many. This is pretty straight forward.
- "The resulting third showed the future" It's not actually Soul Creation to my understanding, but Soul Manifestation, giving the soul a tangible state with which to interact, but all the same considering the current nature of the Third Magic as being synomymous with the Holy Grail War, it could easily be argued that many hopes and aspirations for the future are tied up in it's existence, not to mention the actual implications of such an ability normally.
- "the final fifth had already lost its meaning" One could argue that once you have the ability to freely manipulate time, the concept itself loses all meaning. But I will admit this one is very subjective. All the same, whether or not this relates to the magic themselves or the nature of their discoveries, if we can all agree it is referring directly to the Five True Magics it's worth bringing up. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:21, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
- In regards to what is said about the 5th Magic on the wiki page is does say "Touko Aozaki claims there should be more to it because time travel is also governed by the Second Magic, but she declines to speculate further on the subject" so "the final fifth had already lost its meaning" could be refering to that the knowledge of what the 5th actully does has been lost
- Giving the soul a tangible state could also indicate Transcendence from the mortal shell since if the soul can be given a tangible state then it wouldn't need a body right? so "The resulting third showed the future" could be refering to the eventual Transcendence of humanity.....provided that the prophecy from Atlas doesn't occur before then. Memor-X (talk) 22:57, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
The beginning first changed everything. -> "Denial of nothingness"
The following second acknowledged many. -> "Operation of Parallel Worlds/Operation of Time", common knowledge in the Association
The resulting third showed the future. -> "Materialization of the Soul/Converting the Soul to a Perpetuation Machine", immortality and achieving a higher order of being. (Not unlike Faeries and True Ancestors)
The linking fourth concealed itself. -> "The Unknown Magic", unclear if practitioner is dead or alive. Disciple is alive?
And the final fifth had already lost its meaning. -> "The New Magic". Purposeless? (Destruction oriented) Redundant? Tune in to the next episode of DBZ to find out.
Waifu slayer (talk) 06:42, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
The first deals with what's not. (One use is to integrate something in reality but could be to stop
something from becoming real).
The second deals with what exists of a same object, identity. (Ex:all existence of an object
in time, or a person in different dimension).
The third deals with what is and normally can't change. (Soul, concept).
The fourth deals with what was and never was for it's not anymore. The less visible of the true magic because it means to conceal an event, an existence and even the memory of concealing it. To even accept the existence of this magic means seeing what was and is not. (A seer of possible past maybe???).
The last means to delete an event or something from reality and all it's effects. Contrary to the fourth the event happen but this magic reject reality and it's result.
It's just my theory but it's approximately what could explain what we have seen of the true magic without suppressing the fact that technology would be hard to attain even one. For the second i am not so sure but it would explain why the pupil of Zelrech became insane or die :).
86.68.6.244 13:16, April 7, 2015 (UTC) Kaydjin
The Fifth and Entropy?[]
After discussing with some guys at Superpower Wiki, we were pretty much convinced the Fifth Magic is something along the lines of Entropy Manipulation.
The Time Manipulation is merely an aspect of Entropy Manipulation's laws of conservation of energy. Aoko winds back the five minutes before Soujuurou's death and places them somewhere else. She can't interfere with the events because the energy arrangement is already set, so she changes the arrangement with the Entropy Manipulation, while Zelretch could simply go back and enter an universe where he would save Soujuurou.
Such energy arrangement using the Entropy Manipulation is dangerous to the world, that's why Roa and Walachia says she's dangerous. Let's say for example that the energy arrangement is ABCDE, and Aoko's manipulation made it ADCEB. Such "misarranged" state is more likely to happen when the universe's energy rearranges slowly as it approaches heat death (universe reaching equlibrium), it means the universe's progression to heat death is pushed earlier.
And for every subsequent use of the Fifth the worse it will become. This extra burden of energy scramble up the energy distribution of the universe further (since it is more statistically favourable), thus making the energy in the universe be more dispersed, resulting in a state closer to the homogenous state of heat death. Sandubadear (talk) 19:28, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
Former True Magics[]
Does anyone know of any former True Magics? I mean, I'm honestly having trouble thinking of any. After all, science doesn't have to emmulate it, merely imitate it. By that, I mean, it doesn't have to acchieve the same process, only the same result, and on any scale. For example: teleportation is immitated by traveling(Traveling is going from point A to point Z. The fact that teleportation bypasses the rest of the alphabet is irrelevanat. Well, its enough to make it a High Thaumaturgy, but that's it). Long distance communication - shouting. Projection - crafting. Hypnosis - hynosis. Mind reading - psychology. Memeory alteration - drugs and conditioning. Telekinesis - moving things by hand. And things like cameras are really just evolutions of our anscestor's charcol drawings. See what I mean? Sure, projection(of metal) was obviously a True Magic before metallurgy was invented, but other than that(and space travel), I haven't been able to think of any. Dragonlover553 (talk) 02:14, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
I see what you're getting at, but there's a difference between magecraft and true magic. Magecraft even if it seems miraculous, still has a process, still abides rules that function within the world. If a magus conjurs a flame in their hand, it might be magical, but the flame is still a flame.
True Magic bypasses any sort of process or logic even by magecraft standards, acheiving things like time travel, inter-dimensional travel, drawing on limitless energy. Things that should not be possible at all by the laws of physics as we understand them.Hawkeye2701 (talk) 11:17, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
How strong must be a Magician?[]
Can someone very weak in magecraft still become a Magician? Would he be somewhat stronger? I guess Magicians should all be extremely strong, although a few magi may be stronger than they are (like Caubac Alcatraz maybe?).
Also, how strong are Magicians (and extremely strong magi) compared to Servants? I suppose that F/SN Caster (and other strong Casters like Solomon) surpasses them all, though she can't do Magic. But could they beat weaker Casters / Servants?
Fluoroantimonic Acid (talk) 12:50, June 20, 2016 (UTC)
- Someone weak in magecraft IS a magician: Aoko. If your body isn't able to take Magic though, you won't obtain it from the Root even if you get there, and you'll just be left with the path to the Root...with which you can use every magecraft in the world or whatever. That part in Mahoyo was a clusterfuck so I still don't understand it. Part of the definition of Magic is that no matter what kind of magecraft it is, in front of Magic, it's completely powerless. Aoko is said to be able to battle Servants. Zelretch beat an Ultimate One, which would shit on a billion Servants. Zodiac21 (talk) 14:03, October 12, 2016 (UTC)
True Resurrection[]
Does anyone know the reference for True Resurrection and its connection with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd True Magics? The wording in the wiki has been changed about it, giving it a slightly different meaning. If there's multiple places True Resurrection is talked about, if possible I'd like to know as many as possible.
- That's not a thing. Where did you see that term? All there is is multiple ways to achieve resurrection, but there's no "true" resurrection in particular.
- I'm pretty sure it used to be called True Resurrection before the wiki started using the term complete resurrection to differentiate, which is also gone now. Tried to look through the edit history but I never saw a point where it was called True Resurrection, so I'm not really sure myself. However, past history of the True Magic page implies different levels of resurrection by differentiating resurrection and complete resurrection, and that was edited out. Which is why I want sources for Magic and Resurrection...
- They're connected through logic by their very description. The thing they do can bring back a person who has died. The phrasing in the page that has changed was edited precisely to try and explain the idea better. It's saying that something like time travel can bring back a person that has died, which it relates to resurrection, but that's actually taking someone who is alive and bringing him to a place where he was dead, so it's not really resurrection. It's not a difference between "true" or "false" resurrection as concepts that exist, it's only a language thing. It's probably talked about in some Material book but even without a sourced quote, it's all just basic logic. 109.2.181.168 09:36, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
- Except it isn't basic logic. Rather, it is impossible to infer a difference in resurrection methods from the current state of the page. After all, it's hard to explain a topic with such great precision when there's only one sentence truly detailing it it (sarcasm). What you've said hasn't helped me at all, rather it's a near baseless assumption, which is even worse. Again, give me sources...
- There is no difference, nobody said there was, that's the whole reason the part you're referring to was edited out. You're looking for something that never existed. And yes, everything up here and in the article is simple logic. Stop asking for sources about something that doesn't exist. What you're looking for is a dictionary with the definition of "resurrection." If you want any other answer, you're gonna have to clarify what exactly your question is, because you're not making any sense out of what you're asking for.
- Again, I'm going to have to laugh at your idea of logic; your argument is foundationless. You're saying something never existed when you don't even know where the source for Magic and Resurrection came from. That's not logic, that's literally psychological denial of other possibilities because your assumptional truth has to be correct. I'm already making the assumption that what I'm doing in demanding sources is possibly completely unnecessary as the wikipedia might be correct, but the point of a Schrodinger's Cat is that you don't know the correct truth until you open up the box. Wikipedias are not supposed to be necessarily correct and their articles taken with a grain of salt, but you're assuming this is edited correctly? Just look at the True Ancestor page and the Divine Spirit page, they blatantly contradict each other by saying one or the other is the highest ranking Nature Spirit. It's also said on the Aoko Aozaki page that "Complete resurrection is something that cannot be done even with Magic", contradicting your assumption that there is no "complete resurrection" and thus was edited out. I'll have to dive into Mahoutsukai no Yoru to determine things for myself. But anyways as far as I know anyone can go change an article, and there's a chance it won't be re-edited to fix it, which will naturally accumulate mistakes on the wikipedia. That's why I ask for sources, to try and bypass the possible mistakes, even if it must come to me making my own mistakes in the process of questioning. I've asked for one simple thing twice: sources that talk about the connection of Magic and Resurrection. I misused the phrasing the first time asked, and didn't use the word connection or relation during the second time, but to deny I've been wanting sources about Magic and Resurrection's connection is being obnoxiously picky. Don't give me that crap about dictionaries, sources that don't exist, or clarifying the question. If we've come to say Magic can resurrect people through means such as time travel, where did that come from? If nobody claims responsbility for it, why is it on this wikipedia? Granted I currently know where the part about time travel resurrection came from and that Magic is incapable of "complete resurrection" (Mahoutsukai no Yoru supposedly), but it still stands to question where does Denial of Nothingness and Operation of Parallel Worlds come into play with resurrection? I'm pretty sure there was sources on Denial of Nothingness, but they've seemingly been erased. Is it said that Operation of Parallel Worlds is capable of time travel resurrection just because the Fifth Magic is, or is there an instance where it is said that the Second Magic surely is capable of resurrection? I want more sources about Magic and Resurrection than just Mahoutsukai no Yoru, the only place I'm absolutely sure Magic is used for resurrection. Which actually brings me to another question, why isn't Heaven's Feel listed as well as something capable of resurrection? It can be said Illyasviel used the Third Magic to resurrect Shirou by replacing his soul during the Heavens' Feel route of Fate/Stay Night.
- ....Yeah, I'm not reading that but I get the gist. The definition of "real" resurrection is one where a dead person is brought back to life, not like in the case with Mahoyo where time was messed around with to remove the "time of death." No, Shirou wasn't resurrected; his body and soul were in splinters and the limited application of the Third restored his soul into a new container. If he was dead at that point, he'd be beyond saving. Denial of Nothingness, whatever are mentioned in F/HA, in a certain Bazett quote. None of these can bring a person back to life after they've died; they all mess with the procedure of death to make it appear the person never died. Also, sign your post. Zodiac21 (talk) 13:54, October 12, 2016 (UTC)
An Idea for what the sixth magic could do.[]
Hi guys, this is just something that I have been thinking of ever since I learned about the 5 true magics. At first I don't really have any desire to share this idea since it was not possible for a sixth magic to exist. But after the update where in there is a "sixth magic" included in the list of the true magics, I can now share this idea. My thought of what the sixth magic could be started with the 'fragarach' the ultimate counter for any noble phantasm (besides gae bolg, which if countered with fragarach would result to the 2 users dying.) I thought what if there is a 'sixth magic' that focuses in counter. If the first magic can be intereted as 'creation' the second magic as the 'manipulation of time and space' the third magic as 'materialization of souls' the fourth is currently unknown but I red a discussion here wherein the idea of "removal of concepts" is introduced. (Credits to the one who thought of it.) And then the fifth magic revolves in the concept of 'consumption and extinction. I came up with the idea of the 'sixth magic' revolving in the concept of 'usage of paradox'. The fragarach's ability can be interpreted as an ability that creates a 'paradox' the blade travels back to thebpoint in time where the attack is about to be thrown by the one doint the attack and would hit their heart before they throw it. Resulting to the idea that "the attack can't be thrown since the user is dead before it was thrown." It could be a paradox since the attack is already thrown before the fragarach is launched, but still it hits the target before they throw the attack. So I came up with the idea of a magic that creates a 'reality' where the attack is not possible to be thrown. One example, "an arrow is released and about to hit your heart" (with the use of the 'sixth magic' a contradicting reality will be created to cpunter the attack) "but the arrow can't hit your heart beacuase the bow meant to be used to shoot it, is broken." Thus, the arrow should'nt be released in the first place because 'the bow meant to he used to shoot it is broken.' Resulting to the arrow vanishing just like a bubble. The magic can counter any attack but it is not only limited to attacks. It can counter any occurence as long as a 'contradicting reality' can be made to oppose the event and creat a 'paradox'. It can also be used to Another example (this time let's use a noble phantasm as an example) "Ea is used by gilgamesh to annihilate you with Enuma Elish" then the 'sixth magic' will create this reaity. "The Enuma Elish will not hit, since the Ea is not yet taken out of the gate of babylon." Thus, the Enuma Elish will vanish because Ea is still inside the gate of babylon and is yet to be used by Gilgamesh. This is an Idea I've thought of about what the 'sixth magic' could do. I've decided to give this magic the name 'Realta Nua' in relation to the relaunched visul novel of the Fate/ stay night. Since 'Realta' in italian translates to 'reality' and 'nua' in irish translates to 'new' (this is based on the use of google translate sorry for any misinformation.) Thus, giving the meaning "New Reality" which is close to the idea I presented about what the 'sixth magic' could do. "Create a new reality through creating a paradox that contradicts the current reality."
(I want to say sorry, for any misinformation I might presented in this discussion, I'm still new to the things about the nasuverse. Feel free to speak up if you find anything wrong or if you dissagree. Thank you <3 <3!!
Googllooogoo (talk) 15:15, January 6, 2018 (UTC)Googllooogoo
- A really fascinating idea. Kudos to you sir. The only issue I could think of is maybe that it could be argued to be something very close to the Second Magic, due to pretty much manipulating reality in a certain way that changes it to become like a new world(/parralel world). Even then though, the Second Magic has really only been showed to allow for observation and travel through different worlds, not radically changing them or creating new ones, so it's probably not even a big problem. The idea of creating a "paradox" could also probably be used in a variety of other ways too. All around nice work (I especially liked the name). Alterdream (talk) 18:21, January 6, 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Alterdream, thank you for mentioning that my idea is close to the second magic. I actually overlooked that fact. I forgot that the second magic have the ability to access the 'parallel worlds' and the full capacity of the second magic is yet to be revealed. If ever the second magic have the ability to manipulate reality, then my idea for the 'sixth magic' can be disregarded. Since, it would fall under the 'second magic' but if the second magic is revealed to not have this kind of ability, it is possible for the 'sixth magic' to possess this ability. One more inspiration I had for this idea is the 'reality marble' it can be interpreted as rewriting reality, since the user's inner world enroaches the current reality. Which is the same as my proposed idea, where in a new reality is created, but instead of enroaching the current reality, it 'contradicts' the current reality. Googllooogoo (talk) 03:51, January 7, 2018 (UTC)Googlloogoo
Michael Roa Valdamjong[]
I have noticed some odd desprepencies around information in Roa's page and general pages (ie. the Magic Circuits page, Soul page, etc.). My main point of confusion is why Roa's 'Magic Potential' differs by incarnation when his soul remains constant. If I'm not mistaken Magic Circuits are stored in the soul and thus should not change in amount when all that is changing is the body, correct? In addition to this, shouldn't Roa's host body be changing to fit the blueprint of the soul though this could be explained away by Roa simply conciously resisting such changes.
Also, I have noticed some odd terminology usage on the Familiar page that I am uncertain about, here is the exact words "Following that, the magus needs to repair the animal corpse so that it can move again and by transferring a part of the magus body, that has a great concentration of Magic Circuits (eyes, hair, blood, etc.), into the body of the dead creature in order to give it a new life." Surely this means Magical Energy and not Magic Circuits since this talks of hair and blood when listing examples though I imagine eyes could have one or more circuits running through them of course this could instead mean Magic Circuits with hair and blood simply being a mistake. (Why is hair so valuable anyway? It can't simply be due to being a magical conductor, can it?)
On a side note, since the cycle of reincarnation is a part of the Nasuverse could the reason for declining magical potential be due to Magi creating Crests since they are removing some of their circuits and adding them to the crest every generation though this is kind of a silly theory I feel. And shouldn't the Magic Crest page be expanded based on new info from The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II Volume 1?
- Cupitor Impossibilium 12:10, March 22, 2019 (UTC)