Talk:Third Magic

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Uh. It's a liiitle too much there, IMO :S

Saying something like "There is no scientifically explainable way to hold this process but the Third Magic does just that." is way too much "off-universe" to be used as a description. Not mentionning that the absence of scientifical explanation is redundant : in Nasuverse, Magic really is what modern science can't reproduce to begin with, so that's pretty much a given.

Frankly, we're supposed to be thinking in-universe here. All we need is the article of the soul, where it clearly says the soul won't remain on its own. Then, once this is acquired, the Third Magic simply allows the materialization of that. That's all there needs to be said. This here sounds too much like "trying to find an excuse" or explaining an explanation you yourself don't even believe in.

The materialization bit is understandable in how the soul doesn't belong to the material world, and can't normally interact with the physical realm. This, again, is said in the article for the soul.

That's why I didn't want to go and put too much in the Third Magic : all we should need is the soul. I'd want to insist we stay as much in-universe as possible.

Oh, by the way, "inventing" a magic doesn't sound right, somehow. --Byakko 13:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll be frank, too: half of the articles on this wiki don't make sense to me because they are too in-universe. What's the use of an encyclopedia that doesn't explain its topic properly? It is therefore that I try to word my articles in such way that even someone who has only watched anime adaptations can follow the ideas of the original games through this wiki. The point of an encyclopedia is to explain things, not just copy-paste characters' quotes in long lists.

As for the argument that we only need the soul article, I can only say that at its current state, it doesn't make immediate sense to me, either. I had to piece several statements both from it and from your explanations on Talk:Magic (which isn't even mainspace, btw) together before barely understanding what Third Magic is about. Ergo, I decided to put what I understood into a separate article so that when another n00b like me comes by, he'll just read it and won't cause any more fuss.

And I also consciously attempted to make an article readable on its own right: redundant statements like "magic is unexplainable by science" may blow up the size of an article but they make it easier to read by removing the WTF reaction to things that you, as a long-time Type-Moon expert, may find self-explanatory but a random dude like me, who only begins to learn the majesty of their games, will only find extremely confusing. Another e.g.: it took me half an hour of careful reading to figure out the key difference between magic and magecraft. Call me stupid but it can't be all my fault. Again, my point is to have all relevant information on a subject on the one page dedicated to that subject, no more, no less.

That said, I'm not against in-universe style per se, I just strive to keep the articles understandable by a broader group than just TM experts. That also addresses your "trying to find an excuse" concern. It's not about excuses, it's about explaining the more obscure parts of the story. If the article contains inaccuracies, please, by all means, correct them. But. I insist that the efforts of this project are targeted towards all people out there interested in Type-Moon games, not just the few hardcore players who have been there, done that, translated the whole games into English.

About the "inventing" part... yeah, I admit it's a bit stupid word in the context. "Discover", perhaps? "Develop" would be too technical... "Come up with"?

PS: I'll try to remove some of the more out-of-universe wordings, tell me if it gets better. --Koveras Alvane 21:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There's another attempt. Better ? Worse ? --Byakko 01:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that the paragraphs you added to the Effects section are supposed to replace the old three, and I'm generally OK with that, however, I'm not content with two sentences (in the sense that I don't understand them):

• "To begin with, the summoning of the Servants doesn influence their lifespan: they are still supposed to be dead in the present world." -> Is the lifespan of a person something predefined like in Death Note?
• "Additionally, the mud from the corrupted Grail grants the Servant a body,.." -> So the Grail didn't grant Servant physical bodies before its corruption?

I realize I'm being harsh now but I believe that clearing this matters will improve the article. :) I would also ask that the paragraph on immortality and resurrection remains in the text, as it was taken from the description on the Magic page. --Koveras Alvane 18:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Is the lifespan of a person something predefined like in Death Note?" I dunno if it's the best analogy, but to make it understandable : kinda. With Gaia, the end is predetermined as soon as the object is created - hence why origin = death/end. It's the point of the Chokushi no Magan, to bring that end to "just here and now".

Then there's how the Akashic Records is a list of every single possibility - Ciel dies at this instant T, Ciel dies at the next instant T+1, T+2... In which, of course, the lifespan/existence span would be different. But... That's going into something more complicated, and it's not the point of this current matter.

"So the Grail didn't grant Servant physical bodies before its corruption?" No, they are still spirits. The body we see is only a "visual help", it's not a real body. And on the opposite hand, Gilgamesh who did get corrupted by the mud at the end of the 4th war is unable to dematerialize : because he got an actual body. He still needs to feed on prana to not be crushed by the World and so, though, as the World still sees "Gilgamesh = died 5000 years ago". ... I dunno if it's an actual body just like a real one, but it's physical and to a level "above" what the Servants normally have. Oh, by the way, it's only when the Servant gets in contact with the mud, not as soon as they are summoned. Only Gilgamesh underwent that change when the Grail went loose at the end of Fate/Zero.

The paragraph on immortality that was taken from the original Magic page... You mean "Consequentially, the Third Magic is the only way to achieve perfect resurrection and immortality without loss of personal abilities and soul integrity." ? Yes, it's still there. It's probably a little of a mess ATM, though. It can still use a rewrite/rearranging. --Byakko 19:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Now, if you'd just add these explanations to the article itself, please... =) --Koveras Alvane 10:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

These would rather go to the Soul or Servant articles. But, I'd rather have an actual source to cite before actually adding it. I'll see... --Byakko 11:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)